Curse

Coney · Aug 08, 2009, 11:44 PM // 23:44

So, apparently if your R16 channeling rit hero casts an attack spirit, then you cast the same spirit with R10 - your spirits REPLACE his. LOL WTF?

I don't see this in the spell description. It seems way lame too. Oh well, don't dupe a spirit on yourself/heros...

Hugh Manatee · Aug 09, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

It's not a bug it's a balancing feature. It's been like this for about couple years now, ever since teams used to spam ranger spirits in HA to body block stuff. Having multiple copies of spirits on the same team would be insanely broken, and the new spirit always replaces the old one.

Coney · Aug 09, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I'm sorry, but it doesn't make any sense to replace high level mega healthy (16 channeling, 13 spawning) spirits by wimpy ones (10 channeling, 0 spawning). That's my issue.

Not only that, but then the rit's other spirit spells ([armor of unfeeling][spiritleech aura]) can no longer apply, as the spirits are no longer his...

As to the wall/body block, I can have 3-4 necro summoners, and they aren't limited...

**Marty Silverblade** · Aug 09, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

New spirits replace old ones. Thats just how it is. It's not a bug.

Coney · Aug 09, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Obviously the way the code is defined now, you can't call it a bug. It is aberrant behavior tho, and something that should be looked into, to say the *least*...

IronSheik · Aug 09, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

And what say you summon that spirit just as the R16 is about to run out? Now you have neither spirit and yours is on recharge.

Be smart and don't bring dupes.

Bob Slydell · Aug 09, 2009, 01:49 AM // 01:49

I don't ever remember it being like this... When was it introduced? Could have sworn me and a friend used two rit heroes both with the same spirits and nothing like this happening.

Killamus · Aug 09, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

If you're out of spirit range, then you can re-cast. It's possible to be under the same spirit twice because of this, you just need to watch where you cast it.

duckboy · Aug 09, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coney

As to the wall/body block, I can have 3-4 necro summoners, and they aren't limited...

if ur talking about N/Rt summomning spirits, they do have the same problem, as its a spirit issue not a Ritualist itself issue.

now if ur mentioning minions, they did add a cap of max 10 (possible slightly more with skills and/or cons) where before u could have as many minions as u could keep alive. This was funny in the sense that 'blood of the master', with enough minions, was insta death to a MM and then made what was a small fight at the time now a large 3 way brawl between ur team, the enemy, and a buck load of minions

also the main problem with spirits is they can be 'made' anywhere and like some have said, they could be used to effectivly body block people in pvp and could probably have some serious problems in pve. imagine a rit in Hard Mode that has a quick spammable spirit. now imagine him making 10-20 of em in a fight. don't u think thats a tad overpowered? the reason necros can have 10 minions EACH is simply because they need the bodies. if u can get 30-40 bodies to cater for 3-4 MM necros, then u must be playing factions

.

Seriously tho, MM are only as gd as the number of dead creatures in the area so 3-4 MM doesn't equal insta 30-40 minion army. Ritualists require nothing and 3-4 ritualists armed with Pain, vampirism, bloodsong, and any of the other spirits, all being able to be placed down together does make a insta army of 10-15 spirits. So comparing a necro to a rit doesn't work my friend as minions are not spirits.

Hugh Manatee · Aug 09, 2009, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coney

I'm sorry, but it doesn't make any sense to replace high level mega healthy (16 channeling, 13 spawning) spirits by wimpy ones (10 channeling, 0 spawning). That's my issue.

it does if the new one is the same as the only one, make sure your party isn't duping spirits.

Quote:

Not only that, but then the rit's other spirit spells ([armor of unfeeling][spiritleech aura]) can no longer apply, as the spirits are no longer his...

of course it wouldn't spirits belong to those who summon them, if a guy overwrites your spirit with his, yours dies, his lives.

Quote:

As to the wall/body block, I can have 3-4 necro summoners, and they aren't limited...

Used to be you had a "minion Factory" in PvP with a necro who would intentinally bip to death, get a minion raised off him, and resed by a FC mesmer, doing this you could have about 80 minions in the party by the time the timer started and just swarm your foe to death with barbs or MoP. And in PvE you could have 100s

They capped minions with death magic to stop this, sometime after the spirit nerf.

Coney · Aug 10, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

I hate to say this, but in all the other well-designed MMORPG games I've played, if you tried to replace a higher level *WHATEVER* with a gimped lower level one, it failed to cast. For example, a lot of times, this was same-team griefing...

In this situation, sure, once the 16 channeling 13 spawn spirits are *DEAD*, it makes sense to allow anything to replace them (as they no longer exist). Or if it's the elite 3-spirit signet - spawn those spirits that are *DEAD*. It's just poor game design, *PERIOD*. And this I'm sure isn't the only place it happens in GW, where high level skills are overwritten by crappy ones (enchants/weapon spell/etc).

FWIW, I'm talking casting same-spirits in-range of existing more powerful ones.

Desert Rose · Aug 10, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

It's not bad game design, the game just didn't check for you if it is advantageous to use a skill or not, you have to do it yourself.

Killamus · Aug 10, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coney

I hate to say this, but in all the other well-designed MMORPG games I've played, if you tried to replace a higher level *WHATEVER* with a gimped lower level one, it failed to cast. For example, a lot of times, this was same-team griefing...

In this situation, sure, once the 16 channeling 13 spawn spirits are *DEAD*, it makes sense to allow anything to replace them (as they no longer exist). Or if it's the elite 3-spirit signet - spawn those spirits that are *DEAD*. It's just poor game design, *PERIOD*. And this I'm sure isn't the only place it happens in GW, where high level skills are overwritten by crappy ones (enchants/weapon spell/etc).

FWIW, I'm talking casting same-spirits in-range of existing more powerful ones.

It's not poor game design, you just don't get how advantageous this is.

For instance, if you take the SoS example, let's say there's 5 seconds left to the current 16 channeling spirits there. You have 10 channeling. Rather then having to wait, and have a break in the damage/Bodyblocking/etc, you can cast it with 5 seconds remaining, not having the skill fail, and not having to wait 20 seconds for it to recharge.

Instead of blaming the game, why not just watch what skills you use when you use them. If you want to call this bad design, you might as well call the max level of 20 bad game design, or the max of 8 skills bad design.

And "Same Team Greifing"? I don't see why someone would do that, there's no benefit to it. I've been playing this game for 3 years now, and I've never been with someone who's purposefully greif'd me. (Idiots who don't know what "Save <Personhere>" means don't really count)

Heroes seem to grasp this concept, and their AI is mocked over and over in this site. Seems pretty simple to me.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 10, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

ITT: Some people too lazy to keep an eye on the battlefield.

If you're so bad you can't even keep track of which spirits are up when you're running a spirit build, stay out of PvP. Actually, nevermind, do play PvP because then we get to hear incredibly butthurt whining as you realize this isn't checkers.

Verene · Aug 10, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

You know, it does point this out right on the wiki page.

Really not all that difficult to keep track of what's going on around you...

Coney · Aug 10, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

For instance, if you take the SoS example, let's say there's 5 seconds left to the current 16 channeling spirits there. You have 10 channeling. Rather then having to wait, and have a break in the damage/Bodyblocking/etc, you can cast it with 5 seconds remaining, not having the skill fail, and not having to wait 20 seconds for it to recharge.

Interesting argument, except for the fact that the 16 channeling 13 spawning rit will most definitely have SoS recharged, as it takes 20 seconds, and the 3 spirits last 60.

FWIW, more unusual behavior today. I cast my spirits, move about 1.2 aggro radii away, then recast [vampirism][bloodsong] as they became available (MOBs were 1.5 aggro radii away). They both appeared by me, but with health bars of like 15% and 30%. WTF?

I suspect a queuing issue with server-side command processing, and could see how just as I cast each spirit, the old ones 1.2 radii away just got attacked, so the game applied the new health value after damage to my new ones (thus resetting their health ultra low). This didn't happen very often, but 2 different times I noticed it in about 30 minutes gameplay.

It might also be related to the old spirits 1.2 aggro radii away attacking just as the new spirits were created, so their projectiles were still in-transit to the MOB - and the lifesteal applied to old spirit life was overwritten on the new spirits...

FWIW, it's amazing how many GW boot-lickers there are, who apparently don't want to reason, but merely blindly assert that things ARE THE WAY THEY ARE, so I must be retarded to have not noticed this yet ('sif I didn't know - LOL I pointed it out). Fine, I've pointed this fact out previously in other critiques of gameplay issues that are illogical and inconsistent with expectations.

Killamus · Aug 10, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coney

Interesting argument, except for the fact that the 16 channeling 13 spawning rit will most definitely have SoS recharged, as it takes 20 seconds, and the 3 spirits last 60.

What I said applies to any spirits, it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Quote:

FWIW, it's amazing how many GW boot-lickers there are, who apparently don't want to reason, but merely blindly assert that things ARE THE WAY THEY ARE, so I must be retarded to have not noticed this yet ('sif I didn't know - LOL I pointed it out). Fine, I've pointed this fact out previously in other critiques of gameplay issues that are illogical and inconsistent with expectations.

Alright.
(1) Things are the way they are because of the dev team. We don't have any control, we can suggest things, but as it is, GW1 is pretty much dead - the entire team (Except for about 10 programmers, iirc) has moved onto GW2. Bitch and complain all you want, it's not going to do any good, especially because...
(2) Expectations differ between people. You might expect different things then someone else. As it stands, this is probably the best way to deal with an issue, because of what I stated above. Let's see you come up with a better idea that doesn't allow walls of spirits, failed skills (When a skill fails in this game, remember, it recharges too!) and multiple copies of the same spirits.
(3) SOME things DO act the way you think they do. For instance, conditions. If I put a 20s blindness on a melee, and a hero goes over that two seconds later with a 10s blindness, nothing will happen. Of course, if that hero waited 15 seconds, then the hero's blindness would apply.
(4) Don't dismiss an idea just because on the top it looks stupid. If you'd actually thought about some of the comments here, you'd notice that they do make sense, more then having a skill fail just because you want to re-cast early and aren't observant enough to notice there's another set out there.

Heroes won't overcast your spells, unless there's a real reason to do so (I.E. you ordering them). Hell, they're too stupid to over cast their OWN spells, like the new Machosism, aura of the lich, or double dragon, where it would be beneficial to them to do so.

Coney · Aug 10, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

What I said applies to any spirits, it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Yep, but of all the spirits I use (6), SoS has the shortest life span. It also costs 0 energy (so can't argue rit is OOM). The 3 other spirits I use have 30 second recasts, but last 100 seconds or much longer...

Arguing that GW1 is dead is not valid. They still fix bugs - hell, they're adding new content almost monthly, as well as new skill descriptions.

I can read - but telling me I'd a retard for not watching spirits in the field before I cast a lesser spirit is kinda nonsensical, as I did a quick 5 minute experiment and noticed the "overcast others with lesser attributes" issue. As I mentioned in the initial post, this 5 minute experiment let me know NOT to dupe spirit skills.

FWIW, again I noticed the low health spirit spawn BUG (recasting [vampirism][bloodsong] 1.2 aggro radii away from old spirits). I can't be the only one to have noticed this alternate issue?

EDIT: If a skill fails as you suggest (trying to apply over more powerful buff/hex/condition), it obviously shouldn't recharge. That seems like a bug too (I assume you agree, given your EXCLAMATION!). It should act like [lightbringer's gaze] does, when you try to cast it on a non-abaddon minion (and not cost any mana either)...

Hugh Manatee · Aug 11, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10393491

^I just realized... you're that guy... so who's spirits are your crappy ranger's overwriting... lawlpwn many level 10 scales lately...

Coney · Aug 11, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10393491

^I just realized... you're that guy... so who's spirits are your crappy ranger's overwriting... lawlpwn many level 10 scales lately...

I don't understand - are you suggesting my spirit spam build doesn't work in HM? Or that the lvl 10 scales are an issue? As I mentioned in that thread, 2 skills (communing/restoration) are essential for *BEEFY* opponents.

You seem to lack the skill of reading comprehension. I ran a 5 minute test to determine the initial issue. Obviously I determined NOT to dupe spirit skills.

But to clarify it for you, the TOTAL MORON, I will. My ranger is overwriting the spirits of a 16 CHANNELING 13 SPAWNING rit. Can't you read?!?

But you seem to have flame on your mind - so what flame you? I can farm Java Bluffs in HM solo (NO HEROS) in ~35 minutes. Is this just more LOL for you?

EDIT: I get it, you suggest there's no issue with respawning spirits 1.2 radii away, that *OCCASIONALLY* have very low health. I get it now!